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Post by Warrior on Apr 26, 2011 18:18:34 GMT -8
((Np Shinn, anytime man. This is adding interest to Story Mode, lol))
" First off, if the License System were any sort of "protection", it would have been a CHOICE. They wouldn't have forced it on us. I'm not so much against the 'security' aspect of the idea, because let's face it, it DOES help provide protection for the weaker kind.
The fact that's it's mandatory to the willing and not -- that's what contradicts freedom. Face it -- it's just another excuse for them to arrest the navis that saved this world. Our acts of justice have practically been forgotten over these five short years."[/b]
Where did this guy come from? He made solid points, and Warrior had said earlier that "he had an open mind on this subject", but he wasn't one to turn down a debate. Besides, Warrior had made this argument to himself before. He already knew how to respond.
" You talk about 'righteousness' as if it were just some idea -- just some intangible thought that varies from person to person. You talk about it like it really doesn't exist at all."[/b]
Warrior slowly assessed the area -- still speaking while he moved his eyes and his head -- but gave his neck muscles a short release of tension as he moved them from one side to another.
" Let me put it to you this way -- How do you know measure the darkness of an object?"
By now Warrior returned his gaze to Astrapos, giving him a short second to respond, but after the silence Warrior kept going.
" You can't, because technically, 'Darkness' doesn't exist. However, if you measure the amount of light on the object, you can determine how dark it is.
Light exists, and you can see. Darkness is simply a word made by man to describe the lack of Light.
Darkness isn't real.
Right and Wrong are the same way."
Perhaps they saw where Warrior was going with this, but he continued on anyway as if they didn't.
" 'Right' does exist. It's the same for everyone, at it's core -- even a child knows what it is, they don't need to be taught it. Whatever is pure, whatever is just, and whatever is fair -- that's what's right, and we all know it. And when something is void of Right, we call it Wrong -- but 'wrong' technically doesn't exist either.
Whatever lacks fairness in unfair -- we call it wrong.
Whatever lacks justice is unjust -- we call it wrong.
Whatever lacks purity is evil -- we call it wrong."
Warrior paused again -- watching Glassman's and Astraspos' responses before he continued on.
" The Revolution is pure in it's motives, just in it's cause, and fair in it's objectives. The Revolution is right because it doesn't lack the core-values of what 'right' actually is.
Terra's motives and agendas are kept only to himself. Not only did he just practically fire every valued member of the ONB, but he put the military in charge of everything -- calling them his "officers".
What does that spell?"
" Between the Revolution and the ONB, we're what's right. We've yet to commit an unjust act, other than failing to comply with the unjust acts of others. We were the ones, alongside the old ONB, who stopped Eon and Forte from destroying the planet -- I didn't find Terra or any of his officers there, and they've most certainly been around since that time. If he wasn't willing to protect everyone then, why is he so willing to protect us now?
Atleast we have history to our claim.
This guy is a new face we've never even seen the likes of before. Power not gained is power stolen -- I have no doubt that's how he made it to the position he's in."[/color]
Finishing his ranting, Warrior turned his attention back to Glassman to carry-on with him.
" Understood -- and I'd be a hypocrite to try to force you to join us."[/color]
Give it time. The seed planted will eventually sprout and grow inside of the navi, and he'll be able to choose which side to join -- even if only temporary. In time, Glassman would no doubt fight what he knew he believed in.
Warrior turned his attention back to Astrapos, to counter-argue the question thrown at him.
" Tell me this -- what makes me 'wrong'?"[/color]
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Post by Shinn the Failedge on Apr 26, 2011 20:28:11 GMT -8
The azure Navi merely stays quiet, closing his eyes and allowing the quieter one to declare his decision, and for the other Navi to finish his rant. When he finishes, and poses his question, Astrapos opens his eyes and sighs. "And that's the issue I'm talking about. I never said you were wrong, only what made you so sure of your assured 'justice'. In this manner, you don't seem too different from Terra, both so assured of how justified what you're doing is. Because ultimately, yes, that is what righteousness is. It is an intangible thought which varies from person to person, because we are all different. An ideal of what could be, and how to pursue it. What is 'right' is not something you can pick up of the streets, but something you decide for your own self. Something you see within your mind's eye as a vision. Righteousness is no different than any other emotion. What is right can only depend on the person; even if views are similar, there is an inevitable difference in what is wanted."[/color]
"And yes, darkness does exist. For it was there in the beginning, shall be there in the end, and without its presence, there's no concept of light. Right and wrong are the same, in that a person makes definition for them."[/color] The Navi of lightning rests his head on his arms, looking at the Navi so concerned with purity.
"A child is taught a version of the care-taker's 'right'. It's not the same for everyone, and you shouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume it is. Because everything is based on perception, and you're choosing to be blind to that aspect. Fairness? Who decides what that is? Justice is the same. A murderer can be imprisoned indefinitely, or to be killed. Which is just, when that doesn't change the fact that action still took place? Purity? How can you measure that when each person sees something different, everyone having a different reaction?"[/color]
Giving a slight pause, the azure Navi narrows his eyes just a bit. "And how can we know that? We know the people, but not the motives. Because words are pretty, and lying can be done just as easy as breathing. Stopping the end of the world is not just, it is self preservation, something everything is ingrained with. And? Why should history be the only factor? Chains that bind, no matter from who, STILL BIND!"[/color]
Astrapos stands up, an unusual frown on his face. "I can understand why you call your cause just, right. But in the end, that's only from your point of view. What makes you 'wrong', is the fact that you preach about giving a choice, yet the way you speak leaves little mind which choice you think should be made! You won't force with power, but words can hold just as much sway in manipulations. It's not the matter of the Revolution being right and Terra being wrong, or vice versa, but the fact that you're ranting of 'right' as though everyone can see it the same! The only thing I'm having an issue with, is not if you support the license system, because I'm not particularly fond of it either, but if you will stop the sanctimonious airs and call this for what it is! Because no matter what, you're still fighting! You're still denying someone else what they have! 'Right' and 'wrong' are justifications for that!"[/color] He barely keeps from yelling, before he sighs, bearing a hand against his face.
"No one is the same. You cannot fit an idea of what you think to be justice around everyone. That's no different from Terra calling the Revolution criminals, when you've done nothing more than fight for your beliefs against those that can fight is it not? Good and evil, right and wrong, those are no more than concepts and ideals that can be used correspond to an action. The only one who can decide what any of those means to a person, is the person alone."[/color] Astrapos does not look away, staring dead at Warrior with a seriousness that is rarely found in him.
"Right and wrong are ideals. Ideals, just like dreams, are unique to each."[/color]
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Post by Warrior on Apr 27, 2011 9:00:07 GMT -8
((Good God Shinn, we should've had this RP a long time ago xD! #lovingit ... even if Warrior did just get utterly owned >.o And excuse my stiff-necked RP, it's just... well... his character >_>))
Warrior bit his tongue half way through Astrapos' lecture -- he turned his cheek to avoid the eye contact toward the end -- the edge of his lip twitching to hold back the words he wanted to scream.
When his opposition for the debate was finally finished, Warrior re-locked his eye contact or his rebuttal.
" Well atleast' I'm fighting for something -- more than I can say for you and most other navi. I'm fighting to be the change I want to see."[/color]
That was his name, after all. Warrior... It was just in his nature.
Despite the case he had planned for this argument, Astrapos still pounded him in the ground with words and facts... Apparently Warrior was more effective in physical fights, than in spoken ones. Stronger with weapons than with words, one might say. It wouldn't stop him from trying, though.
" I don't know if you've ever seen a navi die, but it causes a sickening churn in your stomach. Especially the first time you watch it -- nobody can deny the feeling unless they've experienced it many times. All murderers reach that point before they become a murderer."
"I don't know if you've ever stolen anything -- whether for good purposes or bad -- but when you do, you feel an unbearable amount of guilt in your chest and on your shoulders, especially the first time you do it. Nobody can deny it unless they've numbed themselves to the guilt. All thieves reach that point before they become a thief."
"The list goes on -- just because somebody sees a wrong action as their own 'right', doesn't mean they've always seen it that way. They've just numbed theirself to the feeling of wrong, and replaced it with the feeling of right.
At its core, we all know what wrong is -- we can feel it."
Warrior held back from the screaming and yelling, though he raised his voice in response to Astraspos' increased aggressiveness.
" We all know what's right and wrong -- It's built in us, it's in our hearts. We can choose whether or not we follow that gut feeling though -- and if you avoid it long enough, you won't even recognize it anymore. The core values of right -- of stealing, of killing, and et cetera -- everyone knows them. Motives can occasionally be understood, but are for the most part just excuses to justify an injust act."
" I never said 'History was the only factor', but it IS one factor! And a very big one to consider! How could you call that battle "self preservation"?! You make us sound selfish!
Tell me -- if MY motives were to preserve MYSELF, then why did I end up dying in the end? I'm lucky to be here -- I've felt death, and I have no intention of letting anyone else experience it -- inevitable as it may be.
I may not know the motives behind everyone else's hand in that struggle, but I'm fully aware that for the most part, for most of them, it was to protect. Themselves, yes, and the rest of us too.
Even you -- even Terra -- and in the end we're hunted down and attacked for it. That's what isn't fair, just, or right. A positive action receiving a negative reaction -- like what we did made no difference at all -- like it didn't even matter."[/color]
Warrior stood up now, face to face with Astrapos. No sword on his back, no sword in his possession -- Warrior had no intent of making this physical. Again, that'd be hypocrisy. And it wouldn't solve this argument at all.
" Just because we haven't found a way that is right to everyone does not mean that it doesn't exist. No, it's out there. There is a compromise that will be just and right in everyone's eyes, we just haven't found it yet. But we won't give up.
The Revolution might have it.
The Revolution might not.
Terra might have it.
At the moment, Terra most certainly does not. And he doesn't look to intent on changing anything. I would've given the guy a chance if he didn't spontaneously blow this place up.
I don't like his actions, and I don't trust his motives."
" Whether 'right' or 'wrong' in his own eyes, he's got to go. That much, I know."
Cooling down a bit, Warrior lowered the tempo of his voice and took a half step back from Astraspos, so that he wasn't breathing in his face anymore.
" Deep down, everyone has some sort of light in their hearts. Logic can explain things of the mind, not things of the heart. So I don't expect you to be convinced by my argument, and I know there's no way for me to clearly explain it to you.
But inside of all of us there is a universal acceptance of "right" and "wrong" -- some neglect it, others deny it, and still others try to rid themselves of it, but it is still there. Some don't even like it, don't agree with it, and don't accept it -- but in every ear the word "right" rings a familiar bell to that light inside.
Whether or not they allow their own discernment to lead them that way is accountable to them. 'Right' won't always make people happy, and may not always make sense. But when something is right, you can't explain it -- yet you can't deny it. When something is wrong, you can't expose it -- but inside you just know it."[/color]
Ending the argument, Warrior said something rather unexpectable. Made sense though, with enough thought.
" My heart tells me... your right about all this.
And I do support that right and wrong are choices to be made. But if a navi or a person can't differentiate between which is which, it doesn't mean that they don't know what ultimately is right, and what -- ultimately -- is wrong."[/color]
Giving the argument to Astraspos would settle the 'right/wrong' conflict of the argument -- thus proving that there is a right and a wrong that was mutually understood between the two.
The 'ideal' of right and wrong in this situation wasn't unique to solely Astraspos, nor Warrior.
And the "one in power" didn't decide that -- neither of them were in that position.
So effectively, by proving Astraspos' case, Warrior proved his own.
That right and wrong can be universally understood, if one chooses to lay down his pride and accept the truth of another's words.
Astraspos was right.
Continuing to argue would disprove Warrior's case, and technically support Astrospos'. But this wasn't about proving a case. This was the mutual right that compromised the problem.
" Yeah, we fight... but unfortunately, in today's society, that's the only thing we can do. That's the only way to make a difference -- you have to be the change you want to see.
It ain't the popular decision, it ain't the easiest, and it sure ain't the most effective -- but it works.
Chains that bind still bind -- but a difference can set the world free.
I need to be that difference."[/color]
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Post by Shinn the Failedge on Apr 27, 2011 11:58:09 GMT -8
[Perhaps~]
Astrapos stares at Warrior impassively allowing the Navi to trespass his personal space even as a hand twitches in response. "And did I ever say fighting was the issue? We all fight for something. And yes."[/color] The Navi of lightning narrows his eyes at this point. "I have seen death before me. The dealer took much delight in doing so. That still doesn't change that those reaction, they only pertain to me or you. There are those who get a high on stealing; it's why there is the term kleptomaniac. There are those who revel in destruction, not due to necessity, but because they see in it a vision of beauty. Something appalling to me, a view of needless slaughter-"[/color] His mind flickers back to the images of his first days, when everything came crashing down in a wave of ruination. "-was somehow beautiful to the perpetrator. That, to him, it was a 'right' thing to do. Yet I viewed it as wrong, because I hold a different regard as to what the concepts constitute. Every person has their own thought of what is 'right' is the point I'm trying to make. The thing is you're missing my argument. There is a sense of right and wrong yes. But what values are held to those sense are different. Maybe not a clear division for all, but each person still has only what they can see. To one person, what is 'right' may be protecting all. To another, it may be protecting the law above the self. And for another, it may be just destruction of those boundaries. Fighting isn't wrong, because it is a struggle everyday. In the eyes of the ONB, what you do is a technical 'wrong', by breaking law. That, in itself, is from a societal standpoint, where laws are suppose to be followed."[/color] He rolls his eyes at that point, making clear what he thinks of that statement.
"But history is a fickle thing, for the winners write it. Though, you are correct in that regard, for history allows us to learn from mistake. And I called it a battle of preservation, because ultimately, that what it was. Not just your own preservation. But the ideals and values that you wanted to embody. I'm not calling that selfish. I'm calling it a natural reaction. Because an instinct is defend one's self, is it not? Though, you're missing what I'm trying to say. Not that there isn't a right or wrong for each person, but that everyone sees it in a different light. Right and wrong, like good and evil, are labels placed upon something. Maybe they are correct labels. Maybe not. The point is, everyone can have a different idea of what that correctness means. There's a universal acceptance about there being a concept of all this, yes. I never denied that. But what I'm saying is that what those aspect entail for one person can be radically unlike those for another. Some ignore it, through veiled excuses. Other have such a different sense of it, that we view them as wrong. It is through one's own experiences and struggles that they forge a sense of right and wrong, whether it is a majority accepted one or not."[/color]
"Ultimately, it is not a matter of differentiating the two. It comes down to how you define them, and which path you will follow. Yes, one has to be the change they wish to see. Not necessarily what everyone wishes to see. You desire to be the difference; not that the difference is required to come. You see the vision of what would be best, and follow through with it. I'm not saying you're wrong. Nor that you're right. Just that, in order to fully embrace this ideal you speak of, come to terms with what it genuinely is. Do not veil your attempt with justifications or excuses, no matter how correct they seem to you."[/color] And Astrapos wonders, partially, why he entered into this discussion. And then he remembers the conviction this Navi shows so similarly to the tainted image in his mind, and he merely wants to show the one before him that nothing is an absolute before it consumes him to a breaking point.
"It is not about you being right; but the fact that you are willing to pursue an ideal that you deem to be the best option. That's not merely your sense of justice. It's conviction. You are willing to go against the mainstream to bring a change you feel would benefit all. That's not simple your idea of purity, but perseverance. You are willing to see an ideal to its end, no matter the consequences. That is not only the righteousness you see, but the faith you have in what you belief in. So to that end, don't make this a matter of being right or wrong, because only the person themselves will know what right or wrong is to their own values. Make it a matter of what you see needs to be done, and whether or not people will follow you. You don't need to justify why you do this."[/color] To each person, there was society, there were morals, there was kin and those like it, then there was the individual. Each one making up what the definition of 'right' and 'wrong', 'good' and 'evil' could be for a person. Astrapos lifts a hand, point a finger at Warrior's chest.
"You only need to know why you do this, and how to do it. You don't need to declare that your path is an absolute justice. But that it is one where you can take satisfaction in, and bring a change that would benefit all."[/color]
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Post by Wackoguy on May 3, 2011 5:13:04 GMT -8
In a flurry of flames,Fernalius appeared next to Glassman,looking at Astropos and Warrior,then taking out a bag of popcorn,watching them contently.
"So yeah,all this talk about justice and all is fine,but I guess it's pretty obvious that the ONB won't revert back to how it was on its own..."
Fernalius grunted while munching on its popcorn,then nodded in agreement with its owner.
"..guess I'll stay with you guys a bit more,I suppose..."
At these words,Fernalius' eyes lit up and he held up a large sign that read "PARTY-TIME!!!" with confetti on it to compliment the sign itself.
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Post by notegg on May 3, 2011 13:57:07 GMT -8
[SORROW]
[C600B3]
Sorrow appeared a little while into the discussion, he listened to Astrapos' words, he let an evil little grin appear on his face. Sorrow approached Astropos and started to talk, ready for nearly anything.
Sorrow: Of course, you should follow your own words...
you say... *ahem* "You only need to know why you do this, and how to do it. You don't need to declare that your path is an absolute justice. But that it is one where you can take satisfaction in, and bring a change that would benefit all." You say to bring a change that would benefit all but...
Sorrow lowered Astrapos' raised hand and raised a hand himself. He pointed his open palm at the Candevil with the Party-time!! sign and shot a small but painful ball of shadow at the thing.
Sorrow: Now tell me... was that a change that would benefit all? I take satisfaction in it. I think that it could benifit all, but I doubt the owner thinks the same. We live in a disposable world created and controlled by humans. Nothing is real. Reality is such an irony in itself. How easily the world could change in a day. Almost as if... nothing was real. In the human or navi world.
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Post by Shinn the Failedge on May 3, 2011 17:16:00 GMT -8
[Wut da hell, whar u come frm.]
Astrapos gave a small grin at the antics of Glassman and his virus. Despite only knowing them a short while, he had the feeling that they could get along well. He tilted his head at the new entrance. As the stranger raised his hand while lowering the lightning Navi's own, an azure blur came from his other side, as lightning clashed with the ball of shadows that was sent, defending the virus from harm. "...Is that really all you have to say to me? Wow, do you guys not listen to anything or not?"[/color] The new-borne apparently philosopher replied, rolling his eyes. Warrior for missing about half of the argument, and this new intruder... for doing the same thing really. If people were going to argue, the least they could do is much to get all of his points.
"Like I just said, everyone has their own definitions. You think doing something as pitiful and distasteful as that will help something? Whoop de doo for you. Doesn't mean someone won't come along and stop. Thanks to those different ideals, one aspect isn't always going to prevail. Just because you want it does not mean you will get it. You hold conviction in your values; then I can't say that you're wrong. Perhaps from a moralistic or societal point of view, but otherwise not especially. And true, we are just data. Do you honestly believe we don't know though? It's kinda what we're made of, in case you did not notice. It's real enough that this is a life for us, and that our actions here can have an impact on the world out there, for better or for worse. Anything can change; but by the opposite token, anything can also stay the same."[/color] The lightning Navi retorts, a slight bit irritated with the whole situation. It wasn't as if he was here to debate philosophy as a living.
"If you have those feelings, then what do you want me to do about it? Considering your attitude of it all, I doubt I could dissuade from any course of action. But, if you really want..."[/color] His draws his daggers, twirling them with ease, his face holding a nonchalant looking. "We can play. And I'll guarantee that it would be as easy as striking a virus. I feel alive. That's enough reason for me to continue onwards. If you disagree, then that is your own choice."[/color]
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Post by Wackoguy on May 3, 2011 17:41:22 GMT -8
"Geesh,this place just gets more lively by the second,huh?"
Glassman shot a glare at this other newcomer who had attacked his virus in an act of 'making his point'. From the lines thaat were spoken,Glassman could easily read him as not being there just to talk,as they had been doing for a while.
Peace on the net never lasted long it seemed. They were all designed to bust viruses and all,so it would come as no surprise that confrontations would arise from time to time...
Fernalius roared in protest to the navi's words,causing his sign to poof into bits of data while he focused his attention on the navi. A growl got the point across...Fernalius wasn't going to enjoy a party of any sorts with this guy around,apparently.
"Hmph...so you think this entire world is disposable-? Both are so intertwined that getting rid of of either one would be unthinkable..." Glassman said thoughtfully. He then folded his arms,staring at Sorrow...
"Tell me,what are you really here for...?"
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Post by notegg on May 6, 2011 18:35:10 GMT -8
[SORROW]
[C600B3]
Sorrow was a little offended that the virus couldn't take the joke, but nevertheless was still rather happy... in his weird kinda way...
Sorrow: Actually I was coming up here for some tea, would you like some?
Sorrow put a nearly sickening smile on his face of fake hospitality as he materialized 5 cups of tea, and soon sat down to drink his own. His emotion changing quite oddly and instantaneously.
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Post by Wackoguy on May 8, 2011 6:57:24 GMT -8
'That's...kinda odd...' Glassman thought to himself.
"Ah,no tea for me. You can enjoy it all." he said,waving his hands in front of himself in a 'No no,you enjoy it!' type of gesture.
Fernalius picked up a cup of tea and inspected it,swirling it around a bit before putting it back on the table.
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Post by Shinn the Failedge on May 8, 2011 10:05:40 GMT -8
Astrapos rolls his eyes. This was getting to be rather irritating. "No thanks."[/color] The Navi replies shortly. Staying here likely wouldn't be good for his mental health. Giving a sigh, he sheathed one of his daggers.
"Was nice meeting you."[/color] Astrapos says simply to Glassman, giving a small wave, before disappearing in a streak of lightning.
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Post by notegg on May 10, 2011 11:18:49 GMT -8
[SORROW]
[C600B3]
Sorrow: What? Does no one like tea? Well... I'm outta here then, good-bye!
Sorrow made the tea and table vanish under his cloak, and in a blink of an eye, all signs that Sorrow was ever there disappeared.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 7:20:16 GMT -8
A break in reality opened up in one of the alleyways in element city. Out from it stepped Ruin, looking relatively unhappy that he ended up in such a place with so few interesting people. With a License, he wasn't able to go about killing whatever he so chose, and as such he would have to find some unlicensed ones to play with. He began to wander about the crowd, hoping to meet someone of relative interest before he got bored of the place.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 15:25:45 GMT -8
From right in front of Ruin a bight green flash interrupted his path as Li appeared by means of teleportation. The flash seemed to persist as something else appeared after Li did. Data seemed to flow out from his body as he moved, a "cape" of data streamed along in the wind. Hopping on one foot and then the other, the strange navi began to hum a tune that whatever followed him began to hum as well. First it seemed that random navis were prone to following Li and his dance, but then soon after the data began to converge in spaced distances from Li's movement, forming a long line of "data" that quickly developed into lifesized versions of navis, a new expression of Li's ability to create dolls. The dolls were exact lookalikes of everyone Li had come in contact with, save the larger navis only because of size. The Duo and Nebula Grey look-a-likes stood about 8 feet tall, while smaller navis such as Trill were properly sized.
And~One and-two-three-four, and two-and two-three-four~...
Each third navi had a violin and they were playing the same tune Li was humming.
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Post by Wackoguy on May 22, 2011 17:37:29 GMT -8
After Astrapos and Sorrow had both left the area,Glassman leapt from the roof onto yet another one,merely looking around the area. There were a few navis here and there,but none he had to really worry about,at least so he thought.
While walking atop one of the remaining buildings,a melody reached his hearing receptors or 'ears' as one would put it...
Peering over the side of the building,he watched as several familiar navis were materialized...even though they were noticeably smaller in the case of a few.
"Hm....what kind of show is this...? And...why does that guy look familiar...?" Glassman thought to himself. No-one else would be able to hear him unless they were directly next to him.
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