Looks good on the outside, but I would limit it to 1 attack, 1 stat bonus, and single use per battle. I mean, to be fair, in BN, megaman couldn't change crosses mid battle. Still, I understand that some here may want more freedom in systems even though said freedoms allow systems to be broken. I'm just saying what I would do. Also, I would think that the leveling of a cross would sort of lead into broken-ness.
Endgame BN6 MegaMan had 5 crosses, and could pick one when on the custom screen. Next custom he could switch.
That said I do think we should have usage limits. Maybe only so many total turns can be spent in cross time per battle, so say one cross has three turns and another has three. They could both be used, but say the limit is five, one cross is getting cut one turn early. For example. Done with classes, once I'm home I'll give a better write up on all my thoughts and ideas
A bit of a heads up, I kinda jump around just following my train of thought, I don't really have any notes here.
I really like the layout of things that ~Divine|<3|Heart~ has done, however as I previously mentioned, characters like Starless, K-414, and Megami present a challenge to the system due to their Custom Elements, primarily. This is unappealing to players, and the system could be modified slightly to allow them access.
Other characters present interesting challenges as well. Characters with Hidden Elements would require special attention, as the essence of the character is diluted if forced to pick another Element for their Cross. Maybe instead of a Cross Limit of 3, Hidden or Custom Element Crosses would only have 2 or even 1, but they would afford a different sort of edge. Another idea, maybe Standard Element Crosses are Mega Chips (3 potential uses) but Custom and Hidden Element Crosses are Giga Chips (1 use Max)
Which brings me to another point. Normal Element being forced to choose a set of Strengths and Weaknesses for their Cross seems counter-intuitive. Why not have a different set of rules for them? A Normal Element Cross would not add Strengths and Weaknesses. Instead, it would work as the Element's Special Property does, removing one Weakness from any Elements the Cross user currently has. Then while in the Cross, any Attack the user is weak to would end the Cross immediately. There's a slight advantage here, as there are fewer things the user could be weak to, but they don't gain the advantage of having more Strengths.
I really like your ideas about Types coming into this, and all their effects look solid. How Skills and Attacks work as well, look quite good. Just my issue of Custom Skills that we'll have to figure out.
That's all I've really got right now, a bit foggy headed so I'll come back with some more stuff later, hopefully.
Post by AFoxInTheWires on Feb 11, 2015 16:45:09 GMT -8
Wow, man. Everyone has some really good points. Allow me to address them.
First, notegg, I completely agree with everything you said. The system we proposed was by no means near and dear to us. It was just a solid prototype to throw up to get the discussion going. That being the case, it can be messed with in any number of ways. I agree that it should be a bit more selective, especially in the sense that it should be a meaningful choice and not just something where it's free power that you're punished for not taking.
And that brings me to what ~Divine|<3|Heart~ wrote. Deer Lord, man, you're really on to something there. First of all, going with the Giga Chip idea, I think that sounds perfect. I had already been thinking on my own that it should be more limited in acquisition, like maybe waiting until V10 or having to acquire a license, but that might discourage new people that are attracted by the idea but don't want to have to grind through 10 versions just to get it. I had actually thought about it being a Mega Program instead of a chip. Mechanically it would work almost the same, with a few key differences. It would be restricted like normal Mega Programs are, so while you could OWN multiple Crosses, you can only ever have a max of 2 installed, and they conflict with your other Mega Programs. I also feels this fits more aesthetically, as it's like you're installing a bit of the Parent Navi's code into your own. Having a Cross as a Mega Program seems to answer the main points notegg brought up, and fits thematically, and doesn't conflict with any other proposed changes.
I also REALLY like the leveling concept that ~Divine|<3|Heart~ concept. It's sort of what I was going for to being with. Mechanically, I like the idea of the Cross Karma system, something that can rise and fall and effect your ability to Cross dynamically. I do propose a superficial name change, as "Cross Karma" is just too close to Karma. I propose the name "Xync", sort of a portmanteau of "Cross (X)" and "Sync". Basically a measure of how well your Navi can attune with the code of of Navis. I also feel the power of the Cross should match your Xync level. However, I really like the idea of a dynamic system, so here's an idea:
Navis start with 0 Xync. Through an as-yet-to-be-determined method, they can increase Xync up to an absolute Maximum of 300. Initiating a Cross, prolonging it's duration, as well as using Cross Skills and Cross Attacks, will all cost a certain amount of Xync. If you do not have enough Xync to extend the duration, or choose not to, then the Cross ends. Being hit with an element the Cross is weak to while in that Cross will immediately end the Cross, reduce your Xync to 0, and prevent you from using a Cross again for the rest of the current battle.
If we use this or a similar system, it also allows us to address a very valid point that mirror made. While I love the simplification that ~Divine|<3|Heart~ made, I also believe that it presents a few issues. For one, as mirror mentioned, it seems a bit too confining to allow for unique and specialized Navis like Starless to really get their essence across. The other issue I had was that when I looked at the reworked version that he did of Torihime's Cross, I thought, "But, any blade Navi could make something like that. There's nothing that makes it stand out." And then I realized that if it's THAT simple and and rigid, there would be so many Crosses that were so close to identical that it just wouldn't be interesting or meaningful to pick one over 100 others.
So, what I propose is this: You use those Xync points to basically build your Cross. Initiating a Cross will cost at the very LEAST 50 Xync, and for that you get the bonus from the Navi's Type (as suggested by ~Divine|<3|Heart~), 1 Element level, a basic Cross Attack, and a special "Cross Break" attack. If you want to add a passive skill, you can do so by adding 25 Xync to the cost of activating/maintaining the Cross, up to 2 times or a max of 100 Xync to activate/maintain. This means you can add a max of 2 basic passive skills, or one more powerful passive skill that would normally use up 2 skills to make. So, the Cross will cost anywhere from 50-100 to activate, and will cost the same amount at the beginning of each turn to maintain, and always during Set-Up Phase. From that point, active skills can be added (I'm thinking a max of 3), and the active skills can be used as normal skills, but cost Xync to use (probably 25 as well, but the numbers can definitely be played with). Then, we have a basic Cross Attack, which should cost 50 Xync to use and can only be built as to have 0 CD. It would likely be something pulled straight from the Navi, but they might not have any 0 CD attacks or might want to make one more fitting of the cross. The damage of the basic Cross Attack will be based on the Navi using the Cross, but adjusted for any Aimers/Augments/special effects of the attack. These effects should not cost more that -100 Damage total, just to make sure everyone could use it (though being just a basic attack with 0 CD it should be unlikely, but I like to cover bases). Then, you make a special "Cross Break" attack. I like to think of this as an all-or-nothing finishing move. They would cost 100 Xync to use, but upon use will drain ALL of your remaining Xync, and the Cross will end immediatly after use. They should be calculated as being the user's base damage +100, and then have damage adjusted by any Augments/Aimers/Effects attatched to it. Then, since it uses up all remaining Xync, the leftover Xync could simply be added on as flat bonus damage.
Using a relatively simple points system like this, it would give a lot of freedom of expression in creating unique Crosses, but it would also keep them all at roughly the same power level. A Cross without any passive skills might be weaker, but you can stay in Cross potentially much longer. On the other hand, a Cross might have some powerful passives, but it's activation/maintenance cost will be higher and there for will only have a few turns even starting with a full 300 Xync. Also, using this system will also allow the people who USE the Crosses some flexibility in how they use them. Will they activate them just to blast their opponent with an immediate Cross Break attack for high damage? Will they activate the Cross for the defensive typing and/or passive skills, and not use any Cross Attacks and try to stay in Cross as long as possible? You're free to do any of those, or any combination there-of, and change it up for the situation. And while this is a bit more complex than what ~Divine|<3|Heart~ suggested, it's also much LESS complex than the initial proposal. And it's standardized and point-based, so it balances itself against itself. Everyone has the same restrictions and building blocks. Just have to play with the numbers a little, but you should get the idea.
As far as generating Xync, the idea I had was that you can spend 1 attack slot per turn to gain +50 Xync, so basically it's like charging. Every Navi starts every battle at 0 Xync. This means that you will have to wait at LEAST 1 turn from the start of battle before you can initiate Cross, and then you will only have have access to the basic features, only if it doesn't cost more just to initiate, and only until the beginning of your next turn. You'll have to wait until at least turn 2 to gain the use of any actual active skills or attacks, and you'll have to wait until at least turn 3 before you can Cross and use the Cross Break with no extra damage on it. Finally, you would have to wait 6 whole turns just to reach the cap of 300 Xync, all the while sacrificing an attack slot each turn. I think this generates into a fun dynamic at all levels. Lower Version Navis will have to think critically about how they save up and use their Xync, since attack slots are more scarce and battles don't last that long. And at higher Versions with more attack slots and longer battles, the Cross becomes a more strategic tool than a high-risk gamble.
So, in summary, with these proposed changes and having each Cross being a Mega Program, I feel like this addresses many of the issues that were brought up. I'm really excited about implementing this system, but I'm also just as serious about it being fair. I look forward to hearing what you all think about these new ideas I proposed, and if I addressed your concerns or if you have new ones.
EDIT: Forgot to mention this earlier, but if we use a Mega Program instead of a chip, we'll have to change the bonus granted from Resource type Crosses. I'm thinking that they should gain +50 Xync immediately upon activating a Cross. They still have to wait at least one turn to charge it, and they still have the cap of 300, but they're just a little more efficient with their Xync. It IS basically a resource, so Crossing with a Resource type gives you a teeny boost, enough for a Cross attack or a couple activated Cross Skills when you first trigger it.
Been refraining from posting here just to watch what goes on, but I have to say this:
each Cross being a Mega Program
This is the best/closest to balanced suggestion anybody has made in this topic, hands down. Yes, entire wall-of-idea posts and paragraphs of ego trips are being discounted in favor of 6 words. Remember the questions I asked you creators the other day? Here answers simplicity and balance-in-application.
There are a few other viable trade-offs already available within the stats system (like chips already suggested, but there was no real payoff), and this's one of the better ones for what's going on here. Stepping out of the topic again, goodbye.
Last Edit: Feb 12, 2015 6:31:24 GMT -8 by Vilicious
“The true hero is one who conquers his own anger and hatred.” ― Dalai Lama XIV
I really like the idea of having a value system to gauge the "power of friendship" but the idea of having that number be an expendable resource required to activate Crosses gives me a bit of a bad vibe. Not that the system itself is a bad one, but that it feels out of place with the rest of the Cross system. From a character's perspective, they wouldn't have all this experience with others, then activate a Cross and somehow lose that experience.
I do like the idea of having it spent though, just not to activate. A higher level of Xync will inherently allow greater access to aspects of a Cross.
Maybe Xync would be instead of an overall value, each character who had a Cross of another would have a Xync value for that specific character. For example, Mirror and RainMan obtain each other's Cross. However, they haven't known each other long, even though they get along. They aren't particularly best friends but they're still able to banter and fight alongside each other if the need arose. I would see them as having a fairly average Xync value, whatever that may be. This would correlate with their Crosses which would be of average strength, with a few more effects to "unlock" as their friendship and Xync value grows.
On the other hand, Warrior and Merrill are such good friends they refer to themselves as brothers. They would surely have a max Xync value, and their Crosses would be rightfully more powerful for each other.
That's all I've got for now... I'm liking what we're doing though, it's fun to see people engaging.
Post by AFoxInTheWires on Feb 12, 2015 13:11:28 GMT -8
Yeah, totally what mirror said. I was trying to make it a bit more dynamic and independent of another Navi once the Cross is obtained; you can spend time in battle attuning with the Parent Navi's Cross data, and then unleash it in different ways. However, if everyone likes it better as a static value that determines what you can do in the Cross, then I'm okay working with that as well.
My only issues with that are that it relies on more outside factors after the Cross is obtained, and that some people may be tempted to "grind" their Xync super fast and gain huge amounts of power relatively quickly and at earlier Versions. With the Xync system I proposed, you couldn't do that, as everyone has the same power/time trade-off regardless of Version. Plus, you're already spending so much time just to GET the Cross that having to spend even more time in the same way to power it up seems a little overbearing. I feel like the Cross should already represent the time invested to know another Navi closely once it's acquired. Like, that's the reward for doing all that stuff already, and from that point, it's up to YOU to increase your affinity with the Cross Program and not have to depend on others (and their schedules) to power it up. That being said, I'm not totally opposed to the idea, especially if that's what everyone favors.
think of it this way. After x amount interactions, A bond is formed at level 1, at level 3 of the bond, a Cross is formed at level 1, and levels up at level 6 and level 10 of the bond. 10 being the max for bond and 3 max level for cross.
Post by AFoxInTheWires on Feb 12, 2015 14:25:19 GMT -8
Yeah, that could certainly work. I'm a bit biased towards the Xync system I proposed because I like the dynamic aspect of it, but I'm not stubborn like that at all, so whatever everyone likes best is fine with me.
Also just realized, Bug Element users will absolutely DESTROY Crosses. Everything is weak to Bug. Maybe if someone made a Bug Element Cross, it wouldn't be knocked out of it by Elemental Weakness, because otherwise it would never last.
The bonuses granted by Bug Element would balance that risk in my opinion. Hidden Elements have to be earned, so allowing them on Crosses will require some attention. In the case of Bug however I think it's self-balancing.
Post by AFoxInTheWires on Feb 12, 2015 16:39:12 GMT -8
Yeah, I was just thinking that with a Bug Cross, pretty much any attack will knock you out of it, so I was thinking there should be some way of mitigating that a little.
On the subject of Hidden Elements, BECAUSE they have to be earned, no Navi ever starts out with them, and therefor wouldn't really be eligible as a Cross Element in the first place. Since they are always earned after creation, they are additional elements and not considered part of the "essence" of a Navi. Now that I think of it, the same applies to Bug since it is also a Hidden Element. I would say that Hidden Elements just shouldn't be allowed as Crosses, but the way we seem to be heading toward doesn't really allow for it either way.
Would Custom Elements be lumped in with Hidden Elements?
Some navis earn them, but sometimes a veteran member will get permission to build a navi with a Hidden Element. There also are navi's who earn Hidden Elements, but utilize as their main Element. Though in the case of Phenoix, his Cross could simply be Light instead of Pure Light, navis like Gravity Beetle who use Spatial (if I recall correctly) would be denied a Cross (or at least one that accurately captures the essence of the navi)
Also, I believe Nu just got access to Bug Element, and her nature definitely embodies that well. If ~Divine|<3|Heart~ wanted her Cross to be Bug Element, Nu would also be denied.
I think it's something we'll definitely need some staff to weigh in on, as I can understand both sides of the argument.
Super rushed rundown of my opinions. Cell phone post, no time for explanations and such.
-------------------------------------------- CROSS SYSTEM --------------------------------------------
REQUIRED: MEGA PROGRAM (Prevents Re-Activation, Doubling, Augmentation, and Over Abundance)
Warrior Cross Activated Mega Program - User enters Warrior Cross - Xync: 0 1 Use Per Battle
XYNC: 0 Base, 300 Max - Gaining Xync: RP Mods can add Xync at their discretion through any form of RP-Interaction. Intervals generally consist of 25, 50, and 75 Xync.
CROSS EFFECTS: - Gain a Type Effect Corresponding to Parent's Type - Gain Str/Wk Corresponding to one of Parent's Elements, as well as the element itself - Normal, Custom, and Hidden: No Exceptions need to be made.
EFFECTS GAINED: - Normal: +1 Use to 1 Skill - Attack: Aiming Skills add +1 Aimer - Defense: Shields can be made Unbreakable - Recon: Dodges can be made Omni - Support: Barriers can be made UnCuttable - Intel: +1 Hyper Attack or Dark Chip Use - Resource: +1 Battle Chip Use
- Element: No Effects (Gaining Strengths, Potential Stage Interaction, and the ability to add the element to Cross Attacks is the perk. Crosses don't HAVE to fall apart when hit by their weakness, imo.)
SKILLS LEARNED: - Created by the Recipient, not the Parent (ensures it is not sub-optimal for the user) - Reduces Max Xync by 50 to create the skill, then costs 75 - 100 - 125 - 150 Xync to Use the Skill depending on Strength (C, B, A, S Tier respectively) - Passive Skills must be paid every turn to maintain; they do not take effect if their cost is opted not to be paid (Declared in Supportive Phase) - Cross Skills do not otherwise have limited uses per battle
ATTACKS LEARNED: - Created by the Recipient, not the Parent (ensures it is not sub-optimal for the user) - Reduces Max Xync by 25 to create the attack, then costs 50 - 100 - 150 - 200 - 250 Xync to Use the Attack depending on Strength - Attacks with No Effects cost 0 Xync and have No Cooldown - Attacks with One Effect cost 50 Xync and have 1 Cooldown - Attacks with Two Effects cost 100 Xync and have 2 Cooldown (etc) - Attacks deal damage equal to your Navi's Base Attack Damage - Cross Attacks cannot have their Cooldown's tampered with, nor do they gain any damage from Cooldown. - Effects on Cross Attacks count against your Navi's maximum allowed Augments/Advanced Effects and cannot have effects they are not capable of creating. Effects with certain rules (like Unavoidable) still abide by those rules.
XYNC EXPENDITURE: - Xync is only spent when using a Cross Skill or Cross Attack, meaning you could remain in the form indefinitely if you chose not to use either - Your Navi exits a cross when dropping to 0 Xync for that Cross. You may not use an ability that would drop you lower than 0 Xync. - Crosses count as Advanced Forms; activating another Advanced Form will overwrite the Cross unless your character is capable of being in multiple Advanced Forms simultaneously - You can own any number of Crosses, but can only have two equipped at a time, as per Mega Program rules - You can equip/enter a Cross upon obtaining at least 1 Xync from the respective Navi as well as the required Program. As your bond with the Parent Navi continues to grow, your will acquire more Xync and the Cross will grow stronger. The maximum amount of Xync you can have for 1 Navi before reductions is 300 - Maximum Xync is refreshed after every battle
Type: Support (Barriers can become UnCuttable by spending 2 Uses) Element: Metal (Str/Wk as appropriate)
Max Xync: 150 / 300 (Meaning 150 is how much "in-battle Max" I have, but 300 is our "actual Max" before deductions)
Tandem Mastery -- Defensive/Offensive Cross Skill -- Costs 100 Xync per turn to maintain [Warrior's specialty with swordsmanship is expanded by Merrill's, creating a lethal combination of knowledge with the blade] -- Warrior has +85 Armor against C-Attacks and counters each C-Attack taken for 95 Damage -- These Values are increased by +25 per C-Attack Taken, to a Max of 170 Armor and 190 Counter -- Resets Every Turn
Faith's Shield -- Supportive Cross Skill -- Costs 75 Xync to Use [Merrill Twin Swords, Life and Death, orbit rapidly around Warrior's body in a spherical manner, protecting him from attacks] -- Creates a X-HP Barrier around Warrior
Faith's Release -- Cross Attack -- Costs 150 Xync to Use [Merrill's Twin Swords clasp around Warrior's sword, Faith, making it stronger and heavier as he draws back to attack] -- Deals X Damage -- Undodgeable, Cuts Auras, Regardless of Success: Warrior deals +50 Damage with his attacks next turn -- 3 Turn Cooldown
Brotherhood's Conclusion -- Cross Attack -- Costs 150 Xync to Use [The Four Swords shared by Warrior and his brother position themselves around his body in an X-Pattern: Faith, Life, Death, and Temptation. Each Blade acts of its own accord and lashes out at the enemy one after the other before vanishing in a flash of light back to its original position] -- Deals X damage * 4 Hits -- Undodgeable, Cuts Auras, Ignores Armor, Must be Avoided Seprately -- 3 Turn Cooldown ______________________________________________________
Description: Feint spends so much time looking in the mirror that she inadvertantly formed a cross with MirrorMan! Her jet black catsuit now has a reflective silver polish over it while her jacket, gloves, boots, and handgun seem to pulse with the shape-shifting matter that MirrorMan is composed of.
Type: (Whatever Mirror's is, I think Resource?) Element: (Whatever Mirror's is, appropriate Str/Wk)
Max Xync: 50/100
Now They Stare Back -- Offensive Cross Skill -- Costs 50 Xync to Use [The mirrored surface on Feint's suit means her you-know-whats appear to have eyes when you look at them... that's right: her fists. But that isn't an invitation to keep looking!] - Feint interprets 'Charging' as 'Staring at her inappropriately', which makes her want to gouge the subject in the eyes - For every instance that any enemy charged this turn, Feint can add "If Hits: Inflicts Blind" to One Attack for One Use ______________________________________________________
Last Edit: Feb 17, 2015 11:51:55 GMT -8 by Deleted