|
Post by Vilicious on Jun 13, 2013 15:22:23 GMT -8
I know story gets slow and stuff, but that's not exactly my job around here. To open, let me say that I've had these questions on my mind for almost two years and keep revisiting them, to very small success. There are a couple piecemeal solutions I've wondered about, but that's just to satisfy my own interests, and those aren't necessarily yours. This is intended to be answered in regards to stats, but after you've done that, feel free to answer it in regards to RP/story.
First: Stats are essentially what holds a lot of things back. What aspects of stats do you particularly dislike, are unintuitive, or make your experience in the world of stats unfun? (Can be battles, approvals, rules, anything)
Second and similarly, what do you think could be improved? How?
Third and finally, what do you like? Don't answer this first, and don't answer it without answering the other two. Also, don't use cop-out answers like "It's fun" or "It's cool", if you want your answer considered, consider your answer. Details breed development. ;p
|
|
|
Post by Wackoguy on Jun 13, 2013 17:03:32 GMT -8
Giving this a shot!
1st)What do I dislike about stats...?
Well,when one person is at a disadvantage and they kinda have NO WAY of retaliating.Also,hiccups during battle...where one person pretty much drops it altogether.
I also dislike how you can pretty much spam the same attack like no tomorrow...sure it may not have a cooldown,but spamming is kinda annoying....and it takes away the fun of a battle,in my opinion.
...the ability everyone has to simply look at someone's stats figure out exactly what skills and such they have and then go fight them because they know it'll be easy...
...that a team-battle is pretty much DOOMED to never be completed.
...there's no opportunity to really face viruses in-story in a stat battle...only ones you seem able to bump into are the M-class viruses.I'd expect to face some of the 'usual' ones at least...it's not like we tamed ALL of the viruses except the M-class ones...
If you fought someone before and won / lost...you have a high chance of history repeating itself for your match...
2nd)What can be improved?
Let's see...I had the thought of there being 'triggers' whenever you get hit by an attack / take damage (not talking about counters here...).
But yeah...if even V1 navis and their viruses had a chance to get a temporary boost of some sorts (maybe even invincibility against one attack on their next defense turn)...then I think things would be more enjoyable.
...kill the option of spamming the same attack. Maybe only be able to use the same attack twice in a turn.
more chances to fight hordes of viruses...(or maybe pairs). Missions maybe?
...maybe add a 'rule' to a battle here and there? Like how there were rules and such back in Warrior's tournament. (that made things exciting..ADMIT IT!)
3rd) What do I LIKE?
I like the simplicity of a stat battle.
I like that you don't necessarily HAVE to use actual attacks to directly beat your opponent.
I like that in most cases you won't be OHKO'd.
I like that it's easy to put together stats...as easy as you make it for yourself,anyway.
I like that you can bring in allies (viruses and clones) to aid you.
I like a lot of things about stats.
I like that the system is easy to follow and work with
I like its incorporation into story-mode.
======== ....can't think of anything else....
|
|
|
Post by notegg on Jun 13, 2013 17:38:26 GMT -8
Okay, I'm not really prepared to answer these questions in anything with a semblance to coherent thought so here's my attempt at answering them anyway
1) Stats are convoluted, and slow things down way more then they should. It's hard enough trying to balance character+plot+money without having to figure out what the meta is, try to reverse engineer and try to still deal out the 5000+ a turn you'll need to outpace regen. As well, stats are bloated. We have an unnecessary range system, two types of dodging that are basically the same thing, 3 different Aura variations that all do basically the same thing. 3 different ways to increase attack slots, a myriad of ways to heal - it's daunting, and almost unnecessary. Everything's a side-grade, but half the time, the original dodge/block is all you need. While freedom and creativity is good, sometimes it seems like thinking outside of the box is the only way to win, and it's a very large, complex box. Maybe we should make the box smaller and give more room to expand? To me, all of the math is just pointless and bloated because in the end it's going to just be a grind anyway.
2) What could be improved? Staff. No offence guys, and you're the bomb and everything, but rarely do staff do staff things. Atleast not public staff things. Remember sub-types? They were introduced ages ago and then... kinda fell off the map. Which brings me to my next point.
We're small. Very small. Like 8 members today small. For a roleplay forum that's still alive that's both ridiculously sad and an outstanding achievement. We have a community that's willing to stick to what they love and fight tooth and nail for what they love about it. (See the temp cbox 2 for proof.) but... there's only like 8 of us. Kinda small. We have more places then we have members, heck, we've got more places then we probably have navis. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, but would having 9 or 15 or maybe 20 or 30 members a day hurt us? We're a niche site for a series past its prime, but we've got heart, so I don't see why we can't advertise and maybe pick up a few new prospective members. Places like the RPG-D offer a directory for RPG sites like us, and perhaps some lone soul winds up there and eventually winds up with us. Why aren't we more out there?
3) What do I like?
Roleplay - The site is an open free world where you can explore most topics without going completely off the deep end and making someone feel uncomfortable. Anything from grand political drama to complex intertwining character developments. Unlike most other RP sites, this site has a sense of scope and depth that most other sites can't begin to fathom. Sometimes the scope is a little huge and daunting, but nevertheless, it feels like you're in a world of relations, not just a small island of mediocrity.
Community - This is the main sticking point for me. Nothing beats coming home to Warrior cracking some ridiculous joke, Kairi hugging literally frigging everyone, Shast & Tox & Whoever in a complex debate about whatever - from stats to LoL to philosophy. And somehow, even with our differences, I feel welcome here, in fact, I don't know anyone who doesn't. We're a family more then anything. This site is nothing witjout it's members, and though there may be times when you groan about somebody, all in all it's like an argument with a friend, by the next day you'll be laughing at each other's antics again.
It's fun. It's cool.
EDIT: Wait we were talking about stats? Oops.
2) Simplify plox.
3) Stats = EXP/Z = Interesting plot power stuff.
I'm really not interested in doing the same math over and over again for relatively no reward. It doesn't help that making a stat page is usually a huge undertaking. Like I said before, everything's a side-grade but you may as well be using the original because side-grades grant you no real benefit, in fact, it might even be putting you back. What do I suggest? Give a point to everything, but make it so you can't have it all, only some things. Do I choose a block or dodge or aura is a much better choice when you can have only one rather then all three. While I'm not saying it's bad, I think it should be a rare occurrence that puts you back somewhere else.
I hate to give it lip-service, but League of Legends has a pretty well designed skills system. 3 normals and one skill equivalent to our Hyper Modes/Attacks, as well as one passive benefit. Suddenly you have to choose what you want, especially when you can't have a billion of the same thing. Two shields means you're missing a damaging skill, three damaging attacks and you're missing defensive options. It's a tug of war instead of a limp rope you can chop up and change however you like. While this may seem restrictive, it puts more emphasis on the character as a whole, making sure they all work together rather then making sure all four individual things are good. A skilled Yorick (Who's entire point is to work his skills altogether) will beat out any one trick pony character. (*cough Rengar cough*) While rengar's got a menacing powerful attack, if it weren't for his custom meter instead of typical mana he would fall very flat compared to almost everyone else.
Basically we need more ways to be like Warrior without having to be as convoluted as him to get the same things done. (That's a compliment Warrior you made the stats your personal Rengar. (Bad analogy?))
|
|
|
Post by Shast on Jun 13, 2013 17:57:50 GMT -8
Dislike First and foremost, the learning curve. Unless someone is tutoring you in how it works, your in college, or you're unnaturally gifted in figuring out convoluted systems, your first some odd months on this site for stat battling will suck. The only opponents you're likely to have are either super decked(Phoebe, Nu), wicked good(Anything V, or certain others make), or pushovers built to die(That derp of Warriors). None of which could be considered fun or fair. I dislike how numerous attack slots are. I speak from experience in that after 2-3 battles of having more than 5 slots available you attack set becomes the same thing over and over again. No matter who you're fighting. It doesn't matter how many attacks you have on your stat page because the odds of using half of them are slim to none. Because of attack slots, avoidance skills are always a mandatory thing and even then don't last very long unless you've invested a lot of time/money/adminhax into obtaining a lot of skill uses and stacking conditions to get more avoidances out of the skill per use. This makes battles that could be long last for 2-3 turns maximum unless your own navis niche limits you from stacking ludicrously high damage and attack slots(or auto attacks). You could say that having a lot of armor and health would counter that, but health is laughable compared to more slots and armor can be ignored so easily it might as well not be there unless you're stacking it in huge amounts and have a skill to limit armor penetration. I could go on, but yeah, walls o text. I don't like regeneration and how easily it forces battles to a stalemate. When you have a navi who is just plain tanky but with no real damage output, and another navi who can deal with the minimal damage from the other guy the fight just goes on forever into stalemate. Mind you regeneration is sort of easy to deal with. Attacks can have the 'mortal wounds' type effect where regeneration is cut by a little bit. That requires the attack to hit, and of course the person to not be immune to that effect already. Another dislike, like Wacko said, is that people can peep on eachothers stats before a fight. Ruins the surprise and lets you play the entire fight out in your head before it begins to see if you'd win.(Warrior..) Damage, too. It's too easy to get in large numbers. It's pretty common now to see navis at the lower end of the spectrum pushing 300-500 base damage when peoples armor, health, and skill uses can't possibly keep up with or compare to it. So it becomes less of a fight and more of a 'my spammable set up is better than yours, so I win turn 2'. Improved Less attack slots over all. Turn the active from a 3 use spammable hue skill to a smaller uses. The programs are expensive enough as is so that's fine. Make damage harder to get, probably would involve changing how Kaizou worked since that's where the majority of the damage comes from. The damage programs in the shop might need to go. The other side of the fence would be to make armor more prevalent. As is it's the only thing to deal with how much average damage people have(albeit not very well, considering the effects of the attack will still happen) Another avenue, one I'm not fond of, is giving navis more skills. This likely won't solve any problem at all but it would allow people to cover all of the bases easier. Since even at low versions(2-4) you are almost required to have all 3 avoidances and a status heal before you can even consider something flavorful and actually unique to add to your skillset. Like You can do anything if you can work around the restrictions listed above and have an adept understanding of the system... Really that's the best thing I can think of. It's a creative playgound where you could springboard your character concepts and then use them in other games(dnd, etc) if their systems allow it. I'll talk about RP stuff later, maybe.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2013 17:52:59 GMT -8
WARNING: This is a long post (you should've already known that, of course, since I'm the one posting it). But I swear to God you'd better read it anywayAdditionally, this was written over the course of a fews days (I've been busy, so I've had to come back and forth to it), so if some parts don't seem to make sense or whatever, deal with it =D Drawbacks:
To be honest, I could list a ton of things that strike me the wrong way, but instead, I'm going to just mix it all together and boil it all down to one single term: "The Mindset". Or at least my mindset.
Now let me explain.
The System is there for you to express your Navi in anyway you choose. Want a tanky guy? Build it. Want a glass-cannon? Build it.
But beyond that, you can express your Navi even more by personalizing their Skills/Attacks to match a specific "theme". Most Capcom Navis follow this to the 'T', because every detail about them was created to resemble that character. Pumpman has that Barrier-thing, like in the game. And everything about his stats compliments it. Quickman -- when you fight him -- feels like you're fighting the actual Quickman, because his stats reflect the original character so well. Even non-Capcom Navis, like Opera and Ion, or pretty much any of Div's Naivs, are created with specific "themes" that match their character, rather than being built solely to destroy everyone (primarily)
And that's where I see the problem.
Our mindset (or at least mine) is to create something that can't be beaten -- something effective, rather than something creative.
We HAVE to spend all our Skills on Avoids, Attack Slots, Armor, or Regen, because without the necessities, our creation will simply fall apart.
We HAVE to put Two Aimers on every Attack, because otherwise, we'd never hit anything.
In our conquest to "win", we're driven to do things like peak at someone else's Stats Pages (after all, they're out in the open... so no one will know if I take a quick glance, right?), drop out of battles were destined to lose (these things drag out WAY too long anyway... and besides, I lost last time, so why prolong the inevitable?), and spam the same attack over and over (It's not like I'm in an RP-Battle... and after all, using "Blade Slash" doesn't necessarily mean I'm cutting in the same fashion every time. I could cut Horizontally, then vertically, then stab -- all with the same Attack... It just so happens that it's my most effective attack against my enemy. That's a legitimate excuse, right?).
And we do this because why? Because winning is FUN, and losing is NOT.
A shocking discovery, no?
I catch myself doing it all the time: even in non-Stats related things, like RP-Factors.
"Oh, Serix has Lv5 Strength and Finale has Lv5 Speed... Well, Warrior is obviously as strong or as fast as those two, if not more, so I'd better bump him up to Lv5 Strength and Lv5 Speed as well, so that I can... y'know... keep his reputation or whatever. And be better."
Or just when making Stats in general.
" Alright, Genesis has this much Armor, Damage, HP, Regen, Avoids, and Attack Slots.... Embera has this many, AD has this many, and Zane has this many... I'll spend my Resources there (even though it doesn't necessarily compliment Warrior's "theme" as well as a different Skill/Attack would have), just for the sake of having something to use against them, when they do this... Oh, and it's not enough for Warrior to have "good" Damage, or even "High" Damage... It HAS to be the HIGHEST Damage. And Attack Slots too... And Avoids... Screw it, he has to have the highest EVERYTHING, because he's effing Warrior. And he's the best."
Is it right to have this mindset? No. Am I proud to have it? No -- but I won't lie about it, and pretend that I don't (from time to time) think this way.
And I'm sure other people think this way as well (or... at least.. I hope so).
And it's this thought process that just makes the whole thing fall apart.
Stat-Pages become competitive blueprints rather than unique interpretations of your Character.
And even when you don't "build to dominate", you still have to worry about getting chewed up by every one else that follows the MMM-Meta.
It's human nature, I believe, to want to be the best at something. But it's when you start building a Navi's Stats around their character, rather than around your ego, that you start to really have fun with the System we have in place.
And at that point, it stops being about whether you win or lose a Stats-Battle, and more about how effectively your Character was portrayed in that match.
Am I saying that competitive play is bad? By no means! Competitive Play is very fun, and in fact, I'll continue to do it even after saying all of this!
What I'm saying is that creative play is more fun, and much much more rewarding.
We all want to be winners, but that would require that some of us be losers.
And the more we bend or break the rules to reach that goal, the more nerfs end up getting put into the system. And those nerfs actually limit some of the potential creativity around here, as well.
Remember when clones used to be more useful? Or the old Cooldown (and Natural Dodge Cooldown, for that matter) equation? Or when having two stages active at once was allowed? Or Status Reversing? And before long, Ignoring Status Immunity (and the whole "Status cannot be healed on turn of infliction") will end up getting nerfed or removed as well.
We've broken these things in the past -- so much so, that in order to make things balanced, those features had to be either nixed altogether, or just nerfed to the point that they were practically useless. (Totally, for a low-version).
I believe the Site was built with the intent of just buildings things out of your creativity and having fun -- but the improper use of things (in order to fulfill the burning desire to "be the best") has added restrictions to that intent. And I have my fair share of blame for that.
Now, this post isn't intended to be a confession -- but this, honestly, is the biggest flaw in our System, and in a way it's silently implied to be your goal.
"Getting Stronger" as you play a game is sort of an RPG-Theme, so we can't remove that. "Becoming the Strongest", however, is certainly not the ideal.
We Version-Up to get stronger -- but way too stronger. We buy Items to power-up -- but a lot of those things give way too much power. It is absolutely inevitable for a New Member to get stomped on by a Veteran, with the way the System runs, and that's not welcoming at all.
They've got to fight their way upstream against ridiculously over-powered players for months to even just stand next to them in scale of power. Ironically, the New Members are often the only people using the System the right way -- creating uniquely themed Navis, rather than Meta-Navis -- but sadly, those unique ideas get scrapped just so that they can stand their ground.
They can grind through Stat-Battles, but only to gain measly Exp/Zenny from their inevitable losses. And on that note -- why aren't Winning/Losing Rewards the same? Does it not require the same amount of work from both individuals who participated in the Battle for it to be completed? As it stands, the one with more Resources wins the battle, and is rewarded with more Resources. The one with less resources loses the battle, and is punished by receiving even less resources.
If the goal of the MMM isn't simply "to win", then that seriously needs to be changed.
I understand the notion of "Well, why should the Loser get the same amount of Exp/Zenny as the Winner, if they Lost? Haven't you ever played a video-game?"
I have -- but often times, when you "lose" in a video-game, it's because the other person is simply more skilled at the game than you. Not because they were a Version higher, or spent more money on Programs, or equipped more Kaizou Cards than you. You don't Lose battles on the MMM because you're "bad at the game" -- you lose because your Opponent has more stuff than you, which is usually something you just can't help.
"Well, if battles aren't about winning, then what are they even about?"
I'm glad you asked. Because that's exactly my point.
If you didn't read anything at all in this section, then let me summarize it in one, simple thesis.
The root of the problem of the MMM isn't something that can be fixed with a new set of rules. While that would certainly help, and is almost crucial to consider implementing at this point, the real problem is that Battles aren't about having fun, they're about Winning, and Stats aren't about expression, they're about being better than somebody else.
Possible Improvements:
Regardless of how many times I can stress (and how many times Staff has even stressed, in the past) that "don't focus on making a 'be all, beat all' Navi -- just have fun with it", the competitive mindset will still find its way in.
So, in my opinion, a new set of Stat-Creation Rules is almost mandatory. (Not only that, but it could probably make things... I dunno... simpler. For new guys.)
FIRST -- Versions need to be cut down. Way down. If I had to redo it, I'd say "You max at Version 5. Then after that, you reset to v1. Each time you Reset, your Navi grows a Tier (or Evolution, Grade, whatever -- for example, V1α). This makes you SLIGHTLY stronger than a Regular V1, but also SLIGHTLY weaker than a Regular V5. This Evolution can repeat endlessly, so you maintain the feeling that you're always growing stronger." Crucify me for saying it, but a New Guy needs to have as much of a chance at beating a Veteran as any other person. (That being said, I'd reduce the bonus from V-Up to only being like... One thing chosen from a list. IE: +100 HP OR +10 Damage to a few Attacks. Then make versions closer together or sumthin. Makes Approvals easier, which makes them quicker, and also gives everyone a dang chance at not being pounded by higher versions).
SECOND -- Battles last way too long. Their duration needs to be reduced to 3-5 Turns Maximum. Group Battles would last maybe 6-7 Turns Maximum, and Boss Battles 8+ Turns. Now this isn't something we can just SAY and expect it done -- The Template needs to be redone to enable this possibility, mostly by making modifications to Skills and Attacks. (Programs, Kaizou, Accessories, and all other Equipment need to either be severely powered down, or just more limited in Slots so that Navis can't have an abundance of them)
THIRD -- Skills Sets are too overpowered to provide any sort of "Focus" or "Theme" for a Navi. That being said, I'd say: "You start with 1/2 Primary Skills (reflecting your Character's Main Theme), and 3/4 Secondary Skills (complimenting the Character, but also filling gaps if desired)." Primary Skills would follow the Standard Skill Guidelines we have in place right now, whereas Secondary Skills would be much weaker in comparison (IE: "Warrior blocks 1 Attack. 1 Use).
It's important that we make it impossible for a single Navi to be "Good at Everything". You will be able to Dodge a lot, if it's your Primary Skill, but maybe not Block or Aura as often. Or maybe you can have added Damage as a Primary Skill, and only have a minor ability to increase Attack Slots with your Secondary Skill.
Gaining New Skills wouldn't exactly be an everyday thing, either. Maybe you'd get +1 Secondary Skill at v3, then (if we go with the whole "reset to V1α idea I said earlier), you can upgrade a single Secondary Skill into another Primary Skill upon resetting to V1. Skill Uses should also be kind of difficult to gain (not that they aren't somewhat tough already).
FOURTH -- Aimers are too strong. It's funny that we're somewhat reluctant to add regular effects that will "shut down an Armor-User" or "shut down a Regen-User", yet there seems to be no problem in shutting down a Navi who focuses SOLELY on Dodging. It's almost as if it's not even encouraged to build a Navi around a single avoidance.
That being said (in correspondence with the previous suggestion), Aimers should have either a 1 Turn Additional Cooldown to the Attack they're attached to (meaning a 1CD Attack with 1 Aimer would be increased to 2 CD. Having 2 Aimers would mean +2 CD), OR, Aimers reduce an Attack's Damage by 50% (Two Aimers = 75%). Better yet, don't even allow Two Aimers on an Attack. Make that crap Hyper Attack only or sumthin. And get rid of Unavoidable.
FIFTH -- Everything should have Conditions. Legitimate Conditions. "This Attack is Undodgeable IF...", or "This Attack deals +30 Damage IF...", or "This Skill enables Warrior to dodge 1 Attack IF...".
And we need to start realizing that we can measure the strength of a condition with a formula. ⚀ If the Condition is User-Triggerd (IE: "If Warrior..."), and only has 1-3 Methods of Failure ("... dodged an Attack Last Turn"), then the condition is Easy. ⚀ Similarly, if the Condition is Enemy-Triggered (IE: "If the Target..."), and only has 1 Method of Failure ("... used a C-Attack Last Turn"), then again, the condition is Easy.
⚀ A User-Triggered Condition with 4+ Methods of Failure ("If Warrior's HP is a prime Number") is a Difficult Condition. ⚀ An Enemy-Triggerd Condition with 2-3 Methods of Failure ("If Target has Negative Karma") is also a Difficult Condition.
⚀ Lastly, an Enemy-Triggered Condition with 4+ Methods of Failure ("If Target is Defense Type") is a Very Difficult Condition.
And with that in mind, it would be easier to make limitations on things like Powerful Effects (IE: Will only be effective if a Difficult Condition is met), Strong Skills (or maybe even avoidances/regen/armor in general -- but other Skills have no conditions), Hyper Mode Drawbacks, etc.
SIXTH -- Rather than going on, I'm just going to sum the rest up with: "Everything needs to be powered way down". We should be making Navis, not gods.
At that ends my "Let's take everything we know, change it, and then go from there" speech.
Call it an unofficial reset or something.
Personal Likes:
The System is very versatile for just about anything you want to make. And even though Approvals take forever, they at least ensure that everything is made to be as fair as possible.
There's a wide variety of things, too -- so it's virtually impossible to make a "clone" of somebody else's navi (unintentionally)
Specific aspects of the System that I enjoy and want to keep are: Special Emulations, Stage Chips, Dark Chips, Hyper Modes, Programs.
Other aspects that I think we can implement are: Battle Chips, Sub-Types, and potentially Hybrid Abilities (IE: A Skill within an Attack. Like an Attack that would summon a Barrier after being used, or sumthin)
And lastly, aspects of the system that I think need improvement or rebalancing are: Skills, Attacks and Attack Effects, Versions/V-Ups, Kaizou (well... not really Navi Cards. Some'a those Virus Cards are OP as bell though), and pretty much every form of Equipment.
Despite the likelihood of anything from the post getting implemented in anyway/shape/form (because let's be honest, it's kind of... what's the word... "radical"?), that is the conclusion of my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Vilicious on Jul 8, 2013 18:31:19 GMT -8
Not blind to this, definitely been thinking on it. However, the next two weeks I'm actually on base with empty weeknights once again, so it might be time to start at least tackling some of the questions raised (solving them will be more involved, though I'm working on that too)
And other folks (especially newer) feel free to keep posting
|
|
|
Post by Vilicious on Jul 16, 2013 13:05:27 GMT -8
Disclaimer, as usual: I may sound callous at some junctures. I'm just trying to make points. Readers, allow me now to request that visceral reactions to negativity be suppressed in favor of dialogue. Type out what you think (not feel) when something gets a rise. Wacko: -Stats Disadvantage/predictable battling/viewable stats: This is a big one that not many people like. A sad fact contrary to this is that it's a tactics game hidden under an action RPG guise: Because it's turn based, with all moves in the open, and you can read moves into the future, there comes a point where battles all blur into one predictable line, repeated attack sets, repeated defenses ad nauseam. I'm open to alternatives, but leaving the stats viewable to a few (staff approvers, admins for posterity in possible cheating cases) either takes them out of the game or develops an advantage for them, and neither of those are very fun.
-Attack spam: "Punches. Kicks." Your buster. An auto-attack perhaps which you would like increased speed on. I know a lot of people don't like this, and while there are solutions available and I'm not the only person that's served by them, I'm yet to be convinced that this is a bad thing. Dunno about the readers, but in a fight I like to use elbows, fists, knees, and feet, and everything else is just technique based on those with maybe some variance when an object like a chair presents itself. So what does removing it accomplish? A quick-winning tactic gets nixed?
-Team battles failing: Personal prerogative. Either skip-turns or wait? =X This is a motivation thing for everyone, though I think it has a lot to do with how much information has to be processed to make posts after the third person goes.
-Vs. Viruses: BN6's end kind of killed this, story-wise, but it also requires staff that are willing to do it. The gym auto-runs and could have viruses, maybe?
-History repeats, battling: See first point.
-"Triggers when getting hit": Alternative countering? It's been played with. Go for it! I have a lot to say on the point this touches, too.
-"V1 temp boost": Let me pose a counterquestion, then... why? What does it accomplish? How does it become more enjoyable?
-More Missions: That's up to the people who want to make missions, less a stats thing.
-Variant battles: Okay. I'm all for it on even fields of effect, but if people abuse it to garner an unusual advantage over everyone, we should talk limitations.
------------------ ------------------ ------------------ Encore: -Metagaming, stats: Viewable stats. Metagaming exists. I've posed the same question about RP. I've felt the same way about RP. Regen still reaches those amounts?
-Range (C/S): We've thought about cutting this before. It's just one of those aspects people don't use, but it's from the very core of the MMM system: MMX Command Mission. It's really easy to grok. Really easy to ignore if wanted. No burden of knowledge. And that's okay.
-Skill multiplicity: Freedom of creativity breeds myriad animals with the same head. A lot of this is daunting, yes. But only if you take it all in at the head instead of working from a character and going "Okay, he knows how to dodge and counterattack, I know that's a speed skill, he gets one of those" instead of "What can I do?"
I 100% condone thinking outside the box to win. Any goal-based game is a grind.
-Staff: There are incentives for staff to work. It doesn't work. As once posted elsewhere, it would be magnificent if staff were all not just enacted favoritism.
-Small/expansion: You don't even have to ask. Please go for it. Last time I assigned the task to somebody with the means, it kinda got dropped, but if anybody's willing to stretch out that arm, please do.
-Repetitive Action + No reward: Games. That's all. It's all games are. The reward is psychological. League of Legends fits this perfectly: Same 3 maps, and yet we return. Regarding your further points under this, I think I'll tackle it below.
-LoL/"Everyone should be Warrior": So... what I'm hearing, in a mixed way throughout this topic and from other complaints in private and on site are that people want the power without the effort. Warrior's V15 or something ridiculous like that, now. With a Giga. With some questionably approved effects. (Again. WHY!? Favoritism and apathy, goooooo!) Decked out. So our current high point should be the standard, or at least easier? Forgive me for not agreeing.
Mind you, this also runs counter to your idea of limitations: Much of Warrior's power (off the top of my head, it might not be specifically the navi Warrior) lies in the generalized feel, where his active skills all do the job of at least two skills (this is one of the strikes against his approval I have), while he has myriad avoids and other effects. League thrives where MMM doesn't (system-wise, in comparison) because the dodging and attacking is manual. There are Summoner Spells to augment that. Runes to improve your stats (further skills on the MMM). Masteries to grant you niche abilities, stats, and effects that you don't have to think about because they aren't up front, aren't a burden upon the player.
Meanwhile, the MMM has all of this up front, all of the information has to be grokked: And so we get into complications, chore-like stats management, lack of motivation. It can be difficult, certainly. Personally I lack the motivation most of the time. But it's also within each person's power to change that, to cater to what they like and drop what they don't about stats... it's still very open, even for all of the controls that have happened over the past years.
Shast:
-Learning Curve: This is... largely the ultimate goal of this feedback, to find what people don't like and where to simplify. V1 can be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally easy and grab someone into the game. V2 doesn't make it much more complicated, just adds in potential for better combos with the attack slot. Karma and Type modifying V-ups may have been a mistake, though. Opens up what a beginner actually has to read by 40% or so.
-Attack slots/avoids: See above (Wacko/Encore's responses).
-Armor/Health/Regen/Damage/Skills: See, this is where I get annoyed. Too much regen/armor/health is bad, but so are too much damage/attack slots. I know there's not a balance to make everyone happy, but yeesh! If everything's too much, than perhaps we might take a step back and observe that it's a perception issue. What is to be avoided here is another reset (maybe? I can't tell what people want, collectively), but the collection of data from 4 people suggests that that would be necessary to set all the numbers straight again.
-CREATIVITY: Yes. Yes yes yes. See... the thing is is that people are using the words "need" and "metagame" in a casual RPG. Those are perceptions for competitive games. Characters can lose battles. They can be fallible, don't need to be metagamed into personality-oblivion. Here's a secret: Why have I been so cautious with Toxin since the reset? Even since before (after I started playing with his character more, at least)?
He's afraid. He yanked a faction leadership, and the members ended up outstripping him in power. People started actually looking for him, whether they knew it or not. He got followed. Toxin, as a character, probably won't seek another large group of navis ever again. Warrior:
I'm probably going to ignore a large part of your segues.
-Mindset: Yyyyyyyyyyyyep. I find the entire post ironic coming from you of all people, but yes. I agree.
-V-reset: This does not alleviate the problem, but we could have a discussion on that.
-Battle Duration: Funny, I just had an opposite complaint... but really, again. If everything is overpowered, the problem might not be the numbers. Personally, I'm seeing avoids and survivability in general as the main perpetrators in long battles. More damage vs. more HP isn't going to result in a longer battle, that leans toward Damage and shorter battles. Armor and Regen might also be big offenders, but the "Avoids r necessary" "mindset" is the largest. Really, though, more than metagaming, I don't blame any navi. Surviving sure sounds alright with me.
-Skill focus: Another ironic point. Anyway... I have an idea that isn't so niche or rehaul-worthy as this for presentation to other minds.
-Aimers: Meh. CD maybe not. 1/attack, maybe.
-Conditions: We want to mitigate complication and learning curve. That is the goal of any fixes.
|
|
|
Post by Vilicious on Jul 16, 2013 13:08:05 GMT -8
If people are interested in being part of the discussion for fixes, drop a date here when you're available on MSN/Skype over the next two weeks. Weekend nights are right out.
|
|
|
Post by Wackoguy on Jul 16, 2013 15:14:36 GMT -8
-"V1 temp boost": Let me pose a counterquestion, then... why? What does it accomplish? How does it become more enjoyable?
When I posted that idea,I thought it'd at least make it a bit more fun for the lower version...instead of them knowing they'll be pretty much 'curb-stomped' because they're battling someone 2 or more versions higher than them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 15:04:58 GMT -8
I might be available on MSN Monday Morning... And if not, then possibly Wednesday. They're both "not for certain", but they're the only two times I'll be available this week, unfortunately.
If either of those can line-up with you, I'd be glad to have some in-depth discussion on everything. In other news, I guess it is kind of ironic that I said some of the things I did... but that should make you happy, shouldn't it? xD
|
|
|
Post by Shast on Jul 20, 2013 20:37:22 GMT -8
Out of Character Encore, the whole sub type thing. They were thrown into a beta because I didn't feel like going through the tedious task of bug testing. If I recall I gave yuou guys the option to then keep a spereate stat spread for the sake of testing it and giving feedback(I don't remember if anyone did...).
I'll admit I was biased -against- the entirety of the sub-type suggestion. Armor, unisons, whatever the last one was. Not because I didn't like them(In the games styles and unisons were my favorite part) but because they added another layer to an already complex system. Everyone wanted them so badly though so I met in some semblance of a 'middle'.
The problem is(and hilariously enough is most of the discussion in this thread) that it add more layers of complexity onto an already convoluted system. It's more taxing on the navi's creator('more' numbers), their opponents(more to keep track of), and the staff(balancing it, double checking it, etc).
As for recruiting people... Jaja do it. We(Div and Warrior mostly, iirc) were working on things before the proboards update threw everything into whack. I don't really feel good about trying to recruit people here till it looks pretty again or at least has a new non-stock banner. That's also just my opinion. If you want to go out n do it by all means I encourage it. lol
|
|
|
Post by Kman on Jul 23, 2013 22:02:00 GMT -8
I was a newb at one point. Sure, I trumped both Zane and Rikaru in my first battles (trololololololol) and immediately I was judged a deadly threat (or so it seemed to me...I got a /lot/ of PMs). I'm very math-minded, so the system doesn't do all that much to me, as far as... complication? I mean, there's a lot to it, but when you really break it down, it's not that difficult to do. It /looks/ daunting, but breaking it down makes life nice and easy.
Anyway, back to my point. I was a newb. Kular (excuse me, K-414, (Kul4r14n)) was basically built with no avoids, and able to do some decent damage with pretty decent survivability. It worked pretty well. Then clones got nerfed, and I proposed his 'rage' mechanic. It was approved. Kular fought more. He won a few, he lost more, but he was still fun to use.
I didn't really care about losing, because I still considered myself pretty newbish. I was here to learn, to get better. And then Raven let me make a Super Navi named Mars. I basically haxed the system as much as I could possibly do, given the circumstances, and had a dude that dished out like 1million damage on a turn, with everything firing. And I felt it would be fun to use for a few test runs.
And then Ruin ganked him. :l
And then I fought against Xion (with K-414), got ganked there.
And then I got kinda... disillusioned? That thinking I had something neat going on. (You all may recall at that point, my constant bashing of DarkSoul (WHICH IS STILL OP IMOWTFBBQ).)
I seethed, but I got past it, and Kular hit V12-13 or so. And I started getting into the 'real' game. ANd I was trounced. Again, and again, and again. Kular had become...pretty terrible, somewhere. So I focused on Kajira instead, and at low versions, battles were fun. Tactical. Exciting. As soon as I neared 10 though... the entire battle system changed.
Was it just me? It's possible. Low Version meta is vastly different than high version meta. What works in the low doesn't work in the high. But that alone was a contributing factor to my hiatus...which turned into like a year or so of absence.
I don't... enjoy battles at high versions. I can think outside of the box pretty well okay, but those with the experience that know how to hax all the things pretty much can decimate without a second thought. No matter that we're the same version, or even if I'm one or two under, there is no contest. And that's bothersome.
At low versions, even with all the craziness, people are still roughly about the same power. At about 6-7 that starts to change, but early on, things are (more or less) fair. Granted, as I got better with this system, I built Agile, who is probably annoying as all bell to fight due to his 3-4 natural avoids per round, but... while I did enjoy creating that annoying dude... it wasn't the same as when I developed K-414 and Kajira.
Energeist is another 'need to win' type. His concept is sound, and I can make all of the skills relate to how he rolls. But really? 4 auto-charges a round, that he can use on the same turn, rather than the next? 350 base damage at V3? What. And it was then I realized that... I wasn't building for fun, I was building to win.
And then I built Bulwark. I like Bulwark. He's quirky and neat. He's not really OP (I don't think...he's not exactly combat-tested) and I had fun building him because he was...different.
--
Okay, that got way the heck off topic.
Ideas- nerf Kaizou. Like srsly. Something akin to-
"You gain 10 MB/version for Kaizou cards, only."
So a V1 can have a single Kaizou from someone else. And when they hit V4, and can make their own, they can use theirs, someone else's, and then a 20 MB one, for 40 MB total, since they're V4. Because...honestly, I feel that's where a /lot/ of the breaking of the system comes from. A character I had in the works' (since scrapped) entire basis came from exploiting them.
Versions are fine, types are fine, elements are fine, skills are (mostly) fine.
But please. Stop the Kaizou.
Edit- I'm available on Skype every night from 10:30 EST onward. Also MSN. Skype name is obv Kularian
|
|
|
Post by notegg on Jul 26, 2013 19:29:56 GMT -8
OOC
I'm available on skype for most of the daylight -500 GMT. I believe my SN is encoremmm. I'd love to help out as well as I can.
|
|
|
Post by Kman on Jul 27, 2013 12:44:33 GMT -8
Kularian
Just an FYI, I'm going to go ahead and try my own suggestion with my Navi, just to see how it works.
|
|
|
Post by Vilicious on Jul 28, 2013 16:11:17 GMT -8
Meeting tonight for those that'll be available
|
|